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Author Topic: Spirits, Angels and Demons  (Read 1141 times)
SoulRebel
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« on: October 05, 2008, 02:17:33 PM »

Has anyone had experience with Spirits, Angels and Demons?

I've heard people say that ghosts are demons;  people who claim to have seen a loved one who passed, really saw a demon impersonating the person.

what do you think?

I was at a Christian camp many many years ago when I was in High School and a girl was alledgely possessed with demons. I watched her as she started screaming in low voices and it took several adults to constrain her. They prayed over her for several hours. The following day she said she did not remember what happened the night before.

A psychiatrist may say it was a manic episode, but the church believed she was possessed. She had no history of mental illness and as far as we (the other campers) could tell, she was just like any of us.... just another teenager cajoled into going to a Christian camp a opposed to the other popular camps around during the summer.

anyway.... does anyone have any experiences to share about angels, spirits and demons?
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2008, 07:28:29 AM »

Quite honestly, I find that the Catholic church is most responsible when it comes to these sorts of things. Priests are trained to be skeptical about demonic activities until all other explanations no longer fit. Often, they will involve a psychologist that will evaluate the person that is supposedly possessed, and will then take action based upon what that feedback.  They have similar policies about miracles as well that I greatly admire--and consequently there are very very few cases where the Catholic church will acknowledge a miraculous healing. Basically, when it is to the point where all medical opinions from those involved with the case to those that review it independently will come out and say that they are totally baffled and that there is no medical possibility that it could have happened, that is the point at which they will acknowledge a miracle has taken place. Of course, that doesn't stop people from believing what they want--I remember seeing a documentary about a particular shrine in South America (you know the type, one person claims miraculous healing at a location, and suddenly millions show up that are desperate for their own). They said that out of the millions of people that had visited the site over 100 or so years looking for a miracle, the church has only acknowledged four miracles taking place.

Needless to say, I am highly skeptical of miracles, and demonic activities in general. I know, I know--I'm a Christian, I'm not supposed to think that way, but there it is. Personally, I think it is highly irresponsible to claim something is a miraculous healing when it can be more easily explained by saying that the disease ran it's course, and you got better once the body's natural defenses did their work. Mind you, I don't think there's anything wrong with thanking God that you finally go over that pesky cough, but saying it was miraculous when it wasn't just makes all Christians look like uneducated backwoods bumpkins. Even more so to claim that a house is haunted by an evil spirit or a long deceased farmhand. Most of these cases are easily explained by science. So called "ghost hunters" that go into a house with an EKG and claim that some garbled noise on an audio tape is a voice from beyond are the most reprehensible. You say "heightened electromagnetic fields are a sign of a haunting" and I say "strong electromagnetic fields have been clinically shown to cause visual and auditory hallucinations--and the fields are more likely a cause of a geological anomaly like a large mineral deposit." Likewise, the brain is hardwired to recognize both faces and words--that is, any patten that exhibits similar markings to a facial pattern, the brain will recognize as a face; and anything that sounds vaguely like a word will be interpreted as such. We see this all the time when some person that is inclined to the vulgar will interpret the crappy voicebox recording in a child's toy as saying something vulgar or malicious was really meant to be saying something else entirely.

Being irresponsible about things that can have weighty consequences and are out of the scope of "normal" every day experience is dangerous. Take for example this case here: http://www.rickross.com/reference/exorcism/exorcism6.html. When things like this happen, it has the potential of creating a public outcry against the church--and thanks to our incompetent president, there is a growing hostility towards Christianity to begin with--and may lead to legislation barring the church from the practice. Once that happens, it will open the door to more laws being passed to bar religious practices that are deemed "unsafe" or "offensive". Constitution? Yeah... that hasn't meant much to the government lately, now has it? Wink

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Smiley
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Michelle
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2008, 08:46:20 AM »

Well, I don't know about the ghost thing, but I've definitely had an a spiritual encounter about 7 years ago.  I walked into a bookstore with some friends who'd wanted to get something, and I was looking around at all the stuff.  They had a bunch of witchcraft stuff in the store, as well as other New Age materials.  The further into the store I went, the more I couldn't breathe.  It was like someone pushing on my chest so I couldn't get a full breath of air.  (BTW, I have ZERO allergies, no asthma, nothing.)  I told one of my friends that I had to get back outside, and he came with me.  The closer I got to the door, the easier it became to breathe.  Once I was back outside, it was like nothing had ever happened.  I know everyone has their own ideas and feelings about stories, but I truly believe that my spirit sensed something in that store.  I don't know what, but it was definitely real. 
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Anxiety
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2008, 10:37:22 AM »

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The closer I got to the door, the easier it became to breathe.

Maybe that's because when the door gets opened it lets in fresh air.  I had a similar experience in a warehouse full of Plasma TVs, but never thought to attribute it to spirits.
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Michelle
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2008, 09:16:41 PM »

Please don't discount my experience.   Smiley
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Paul
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2008, 09:59:23 PM »

Please don't discount my experience.   Smiley

Michelle; I don't feel that Anxiety was making light of your experience.

While he also says that he felt a similar discomfort when walking through a warehouse of plasma tv's, he made what to him explained a scientific reason for his feelings.    He is correct that the air outside of and near to a door is cleaner and fresher the closer you are to it, while the further one goes back into a large room the air becomes stuffier.

You had your experience and it happened as you have described. No one else who has posted was there to experience what you went through. We all can appreciate that you feel comfortable enough to post this on the blog for everyone else to read.

He is admitting that he would not look at the experience from a supernatural viewpoint, but would try to find a scientific explanation.  Anxiety is not known for looking for any supernatural explanations.  Which lends itself to showing that there are different interpretations to everyone that we all experience.

I am sure that he did not mean for his words to cause you consternation.  Smiley
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Anxiety
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2008, 11:28:33 PM »

Yes, well said Paul.  I should hire you as my spokesperson. 

I'd love to find a connection to a 'spiritual world'.  It sounds fantastic from what I've read.  Unfortunately for my curiosity, I simply cannot by any reasonable means make this connection. 

I'm not putting the idea of it down;  I just cannot relate to your experience except by my own limited boring (to some) standards.

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Anxiety
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2008, 09:05:12 PM »

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Not necessarily.  Pollution, tree pollen, etc. is much worse outdoors than it is indoors.  So this isn't really a "scientific" explanation.

Apologies.  I'm not a a doctor, so I'm not an authority on the "scientific" explanation.  You, however, seem to be in support of the witch doctor theory.  Would you care to enlighten us with a better explanation from this viewpoint?
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2008, 09:27:42 PM »

I'm not being rude,  I'm being serious.  Whether it be my fault or yours, you're still not finding a discrepancy between the two.
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Anxiety
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2008, 07:42:49 AM »

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Well, perhaps you can help me make the distinction by, say, not putting words in my mouth, for starters.  For example, I did not say you are, or are not, an "authority" on scientific explanations.

I'm telling you I'm not an authority.  I made the statement.  This is not putting words into your mouth.

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And I definitely did not even mention the words "witch doctor."  I think that if you asked me a question directly and dropped the sarcasm, I'd be less inclined to consider it rude.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/metaphor

Sarcasm intends to say the opposite of a what a person means for ironic emphasis.  I did none of that here.  Sorry to get so off-topic, but if your working definition of rude includes someone asking a hard question aimed at receiving a substantive answer then there's not much progress to be made.
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Anxiety
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2008, 10:56:16 AM »

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But if we're going to be honest with ourselves, we should point out the holes in both sides, not just the side we don't like.

You cannot point out holes in something that hasn't been explained, which is why I asked you to provide an explanation, or even an estimation of what could have happened.

I'll try to be more specific:
Describe and give a spiritual explanation for Michelle's experience.  Describe the explanation in terms of nature, quality, and physical properties.
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Michelle
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2008, 06:53:42 PM »

Thanks Amanda  Wink

For what it's worth, I don't subscribe to the "witch doctor" thing you guys were talking about either. 

I really can't explain it anymore than I did.  The whole thing happened in less than 10 minutes. 

I know it was real. 
I know it wasn't air from the door. 
I know it was spiritual. 
And I know some people will be skeptical because it isn't necessarily back by scientific findings. 

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Anxiety
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2008, 08:14:04 PM »

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If it makes you feel any better, I am not necessarily "in support of the witch doctor theory," and I thought I made it pretty clear that I'm more likely to attribute these types of experiences to a psychosomatic response than a spiritual communication.

You are in support of the idea that these occurrences happen.  Given this, how would such an occurrence (a spiritual connection) be described in both quality and nature?
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2008, 10:26:18 PM »

From Amanda:
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...if we're going to be honest with ourselves, we should point out the holes in both sides, not just the side we don't like.

I am in agreement with this and would like a description of the spiritual side.  You say one shouldn't discount the belief in the spiritual, but you cannot defend this assertion, let alone begin to define it.
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2008, 05:10:39 PM »

If you would be so kind, please trying zooming out a little bit,  both in philosophy and ego.  I was not singling you out. I was singling your ideas out for the purpose of trying to find the reason for you belief in the supernatural.  The suggestion that I come here to criticize rather than to learn is libelous at best, but I digress.  In lieu of continuing this pissing contest, let's refer back to the topic at hand, shall we?

You said in your first response that you lean more toward believing in the scientific explanation rather than the spiritual, but you still believe that spiritual things do happen.  What is the reason for having more skepticism than faith when it comes to these particular issues?

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So you have just as much "faith" in the condition of the air that Michelle has in her soul's ability to sense that something was out-of-whack.  That's the point I was making.  I wasn't saying that I could write a dissertation on the nature and quality of a spiritual experience, and I'm sorry if I gave you that impression.

My initial statement started with "maybe".  A hypothesis isn't faith.  I'm not asking you to write a lengthy explanation of the spiritual experience. I'm asking you to provide support for your assertion that there exists a congruency between empirical investigation and non-investigative spiritual belief as you did in the following statement: 

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On that note, I wonder if there has been any research done on the neuroscience behind spiritual experiences.

This would seem to suggest that spirituality can be subjected to the scientific method the same as your criticism of my initial hypothesis.  If I am accurate in my interpretation of this, then I'd like you to give reasoning behind this belief.

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No one tested the air inside the building and out.  So you have just as much "faith" in the condition of the air that Michelle has in her soul's ability to sense that something was out-of-whack.

To elaborate and further clarify: You are correct in that no one tested the building inside and out, so we have no data to support a scientific explanation.  The divergence in our investigative philosophies seems to be that you think spiritual events do in fact occur and it's possible to collect data on them.
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