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Author Topic: Hope Revisited  (Read 3370 times)
Miranda
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« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2008, 02:14:09 PM »

Would you suggest that instead of calmly reflecting on all possible outcomes that I should have blind optimism?  What does this optimism serve?  If one is trapped in the desert without water, should he hope that there is an oasis on the other side of each dune, or would he be better of considering the possibility that there may not be any water for miles?

He may not be hoping for water on the other side of every dune, but he is surely hoping to live through the experience, otherwise he would just give up and lay down and die.

Hope is a powerful force. It helps people survive seemingly unbearable situations and circumstances (such as oppression) by allowing them to consider the possibility that things will get better and to have faith in that possibility. The strength of hope can be seen in how hard it is to rid yourself of it. Even the most cynical person occasionally feels hope and it can often be very difficult to shut it out completely.

I think you are completely wring in your equation of hope with blind optimism. They are two vastly different things.
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Anxiety
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« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2008, 03:10:06 PM »

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You can hope for good things, but also be aware that things may not happen the way you want them to.

Hope
1: to cherish a desire with anticipation <hopes for a promotion> 2(archaic): to desire with expectation of obtainment 2: to expect with confidence : trust


I thought we agreed to work with this definition.  Would you like to revise it now?

Understanding the possibility that something might get "better" --that they might be happier because of some outcome, is not the same as hope according the definition we agreed upon earlier.  So it's either that you believe in a sort of golden mean between hope and cynical evaluation and you never really 'hoped' in the true sense of the word, or you're just deviating from the definition.
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Bruce Blagg
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« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2008, 07:11:48 PM »

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Sure, given the current emphasis on obtaining a degree it would probably be a beneficial thing for me to finish my degree.  Why does this mean I should hope that I finish it?  There are countless situations that could result in me not receiving a degree or finishing college.

But what would you do if you had no hope of finishing it?  Would you continue the current emphasis?

Which leads to another question, if one does not hope does that mean that the person has no hope?  I'm not sure.
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Bruce Blagg
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« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2008, 07:14:57 PM »

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The note, doesn't say to Hope, but to live life confidently without fear.  Acceptance of the moment, with a "faith" that  all things will work out.

Interesting choice of words.  The writer of Hebrews says that faith is the "evidence of things hoped for".  When nothing is "hoped for" there is no need for "faith".  Or is there?
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Anxiety
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« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2008, 07:52:06 PM »

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When nothing is "hoped for" there is no need for "faith". 

Is there ever a need for faith?

Quote
But what would you do if you had no hope of finishing it?  Would you continue the current emphasis?

To be completely honest I don't have the expectation of finishing my degree, and I really don't have a desire to do it either.  It's just something I'm doing because it may make my life a bit easier to have a degree.  You could say that I hope for a happy life, but that would be inaccurate.  I don't have the expectation that "everything will work out" because rarely does everything work out as planned. 

I must reiterate that one can be passionate without hope.  You're trying very hard to defend the Western post-christian notion that hope is good without giving evidence for what a person with hope can do that a person without it cannot.
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Paul
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« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2008, 08:30:20 AM »

Let's look at the different definitions of hope that have come up on the thread-
Quote from: Brandy
Wikipedia:
"Hope is a belief in a positive outcome related to events and circumstances in one's life. Hope implies a certain amount of ? i.e. believing that a positive outcome is possible even when there is some evidence to the contrary."

"Hope is passive in the sense of a wish or a prayer - or active as a plan or idea, often against popular belief, with persistent, personal action to execute the plan or prove the idea. Consider a prisoner of war who never gives up hope for escape and, against the odds, plans and accomplishes this. By contrast, consider another prisoner who simply wishes or prays for freedom, or another who gives up all hope of freedom."

"the general feeling that some desire will be fulfilled; "in spite of his troubles he never gave up hope"

"promise: grounds for feeling hopeful about the future; "there is little or no promise that he will recover"


Merriam-Webster:
hope against hope : to hope without any basis for expecting fulfillment

then
Quote from: Bruce
Desire provides the motivation to strive for the objective.  The expectation of obtainment provides the endurance to persevere in the endeavor.

If these are so, then I believe this would be a productive thing to hold on to.  Without hope, perseverance is futile.


then
Quote from: Anxiety
No, but hope is an expected desire

Quote from: Miranda
Hope is a powerful force. It helps people survive seemingly unbearable situations and circumstances (such as oppression) by allowing them to consider the possibility that things will get better and to have faith in that possibility. The strength of hope can be seen in how hard it is to rid yourself of it. Even the most cynical person occasionally feels hope and it can often be very difficult to shut it out completely.

and finally -

Anxiety questions if we have left the original definition and mutated it to something else.

His version of the original is:
Quote from: Anxiety
Hope
1: to cherish a desire with anticipation <hopes for a promotion> 2(archaic): to desire with expectation of obtainment 2: to expect with confidence : trust

Original -
Quote from: Brandy
Wikipedia:
"Hope is a belief in a positive outcome related to events and circumstances in one's life. Hope implies a certain amount of ? i.e. believing that a positive outcome is possible even when there is some evidence to the contrary."

"Hope is passive in the sense of a wish or a prayer - or active as a plan or idea, often against popular belief, with persistent, personal action to execute the plan or prove the idea. Consider a prisoner of war who never gives up hope for escape and, against the odds, plans and accomplishes this. By contrast, consider another prisoner who simply wishes or prays for freedom, or another who gives up all hope of freedom."

"the general feeling that some desire will be fulfilled; "in spite of his troubles he never gave up hope"

"promise: grounds for feeling hopeful about the future; "there is little or no promise that he will recover"


Merriam-Webster:
hope against hope : to hope without any basis for expecting fulfillment


Nope - I think we are on the same track. 
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Paul
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« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2008, 08:49:29 AM »

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When nothing is "hoped for" there is no need for "faith". 

Is there ever a need for faith?

Yes, but it does not have to be in a theological format with doctrines and such.  Both hope and faith can be classified as emotions. Humans need emotions to help maintain stability in our lives and mental conditions.  When a person has no emotions they are sometimes called psychopaths, but even they have some emotions. For they have "faith/belief" that they will not be found to be in conflict with their living standards.


Quote
But what would you do if you had no hope of finishing it?  Would you continue the current emphasis?
Quote from: Anxiety
I must reiterate that one can be passionate without hope.  You're trying very hard to defend the Western post-christian notion that hope is good without giving evidence for what a person with hope can do that a person without it cannot.

Again hope, passion, faith are all emotions.  Physically and mentally, neither one is more dominant. Hope cannot be shown to do more good than non hope and vice versa. They are at stalemate.  The difference comes from the emotional standpoint.  Hope as an emotion (desire with anticipation) can far outweigh the non hope.  As you noted in the Thanksgiving thread - you HOPE that everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving. Your emotional desire with anticipation for the betterment of everyone who read your note was received and then that "desire to have" was transmitted and accomplished by many others beside yourself, along with now connecting you to each of our experiences of Thanksgiving.  Creating a better understanding and community between you and the readers.

Now had you said "Happy Thanksgiving" in the non hopeful manner, the emotion is not the same, there is no connection, it is merely a warm Holiday saying which people enjoy for a second and then move on to another thought.

 
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Brandy
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« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2008, 09:24:57 PM »

I must reiterate that one can be passionate without hope.  You're trying very hard to defend the Western post-christian notion that hope is good without giving evidence for what a person with hope can do that a person without it cannot.

I'm having a hard time understanding this one. Can you give an example?
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Anxiety
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« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2008, 09:47:26 PM »

I'm having a hard time understanding this one. Can you give an example?

Supporting a 3rd party candidate for President.
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Brandy
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« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2008, 08:27:38 AM »

I'm having a hard time understanding this one. Can you give an example?

Supporting a 3rd party candidate for President.

 Huh?
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Brandy
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« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2008, 02:52:42 PM »

Some quotes I found on hope:

I find hope in the darkest of days, and focus in the brightest. I do not judge the universe.
-- Dalai Lama

If you lose hope, somehow you lose the vitality that keeps life moving, you lose that courage to be, that quality that helps you go on in spite of it all. And so today I still have a dream.
-- Martin Luther King, Jr

Once you choose hope, anything's possible.
-- Christopher Reeve

We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope.
-- Martin Luther King, Jr

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
-- Oscar Wilde


Hope is not a dream but a way of making dreams become reality.
-- Author Unknown


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Anxiety
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« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2008, 02:56:23 PM »

That last quote would be great if it were true.
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Brandy
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« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2008, 03:00:32 PM »

That last quote would be great if it were true.

It is. It's the possibility that it can be a reality.
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Paul
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« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2008, 02:18:47 PM »

Here is a different perspective on Hope and Faith from  Rav. Michael Berg.  Thought you may enjoy.  Wink

 "From a spiritual perspective, it is more probable that the unplanned, or what we call random occurrences, are greater opportunities for connecting and revealing Light than what we originally had in mind.
When we set a course of action for ourselves, we hope what we are doing is right, but we can?t be sure.  Whereas, when interruptions occur and we are thrust into situations we didn?t want to be in, the consciousness we want to have is, Who put us here?
Of course, as individuals on a spiritual path, we know the answer to that question ? the Light of the Creator. 

This beautiful understanding reverses how we see mess-ups and mix-ups.  When the unexpected, unscripted occurs, we can know for certain that this is where we are meant to be and what we are meant to do.


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