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Author Topic: Is learning about first Century Jesus - a pandora's box?  (Read 3664 times)
Paul
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Light dispels the darkness


« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2009, 08:08:10 AM »

Just a side note, as Christine would say, God also has a plan for humans.  Verifiable in Genesis - to make man like one of us.

God started this journey for mankind with the creation, the final goal is for us to be like one of us. In between the beginning and the end is up to us.

The plan never changes, the time frame does.  But if you believe God is eternal, then time is of no consequence.
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Bruce Blagg
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« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2009, 01:49:01 PM »

Quote
just for you -  confusion 101

1. free will = separate will
2. God's gift to humans = free will (separate will) from God
3. God's Will for humans is to accept the Gift of free will

My question was not with this, but with the comment "that our actions would become God's Will".  That is not a necessary conclusion of this logic.  If our actions are opposed to what God desired then I don't believe that God changes what He desires to match our action.  From the comment, it seems to imply that our actions (because they come out of the free will God offers) defines or determines God's Will for that situation.  As I stated, free will means a separate will, but does not imply that the two Wills end up being the same.
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Paul
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« Reply #107 on: December 02, 2009, 12:37:34 AM »

I see your point of view on this.

Difficulty is in the term God's Will vs Mankinds' Will.

The debate seems to be on this point.  If God's will is for mankind to have a free will,  then God is accepting that what Mankind chooses is compatible with those terms.  I agree that it may not be exactly the same, however they do coincide with each other.

Example:  You give your grandson a gift - let's say it is $10 to do with as he chooses.  Walking with you in the mall he sees this really cool, annoying toy that was on tv.  It makes a lot of noise, flashes and basically has no redeeming value to an adult.  But he is infatuated with the toy.  Your agreement was that he could spend it any way he chooses to.  Even though the toy will irritate you to no end.  Being older and wiser you know that the attention span of your grandson will be short in the long run and he will tire of his toy and eventually go back to being the quiet, attentive grandson that he was before.

1. You gave him free will
2. He utilized that free will for his own self interest
3. You accept that his choice is the right one for him at that time and do not interfere, even though the choice is against what you would have chosen for him.
4. You know that eventually he will make a more suitable choice in the future.

Line 3 is the crux of the matter.  In the sense of the grandson, you accepting his choice and not interfering makes him believe that both you and he are of the same mind and his choice is now your choice also, for had you a separate mindset, then you would have forced him into a different choice. 
Line 4 differentiates the same mind into two minds that are separate. 

So, does God's will become God's desire for humans to act mature enough right now in our own lives to see life from God's perspective, or is it merely waiting patiently for humans to live their choices and tire of them?



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Bruce Blagg
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« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2009, 10:26:29 AM »

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I see your point of view on this.

Glad you can see my point of view.   Smiley Smiley Smiley

I liked your four step analogy.  I think it provides a basis for discussion.

For example, if in step 3 my grandson stops and asks if I think this is a good selection, allowing me to have input, and then listens and changes his choice based on that input, then he gets a better toy for him, he has "done" or honored my will, and we have a closer relationship.  Maybe that is why it is important to know and do the Will of the Father instead of what we believe to be right for us (as Jesus taught).
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Paul
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« Reply #109 on: December 03, 2009, 10:41:32 PM »

I knew eventually you would see life from my point of view.   Grin    laugh

On the flip side of your example, your grandson also has the option to not ask you for your advise. He gets the toy that he originally wanted, no more aware of the "better" deal then before but perfectly happy with his decision.  He still has an intimate relationship with you, he has not done Your will, but because you created the rules that he could make his own decisions and you would honor them, then to keep the intimate relationship you accept his choices and celebrate his choice of toys and his decision.  Your Will states that you will accept and bless the decision of the grandson.

Maybe the discussion on the Will should go back to number 1. Once the Gift of Free Will and the consequences of having Free Will was given, you also bound yourself to accepting the decisions caused by that  Free Will.  God's Will and Love is in the acceptance and use of the Gift to humankind.  When we do not use the Gift of Free Will then we are in opposition to God's Will.

 Maybe that is why it is important to know and do the Will of the Father instead of what we believe to be right for us (as Jesus taught).  I will have to half agree with you on this. It is the knowing of what is the Will of the Father that is in question.  As Jesus asks on Gethsemane, Yet not as I will, but as you will. Is he talking about the original desire of the Father noted in Genesis? For man to become as "one of us"?  In which case, Man would emulate the all encompassing Love of God that is given to everything. To have the power to 'create" a pure and sinless world - "eden" again.  At that moment in Jesus' life, he notes that his soul is despair as if to death.  A biblical analogy of depression. He can at this point choose to run away, save himself, not complete his task. But he is looking to the Father for assurance, advice and confirmation that his choice will be right one for humankind. It is telling that the Father does not answer him, but allows Jesus to make his own decision based on Free Will.  We think that the decision to die is the Will of the Father, but it is not stated in the bible or in any of the Gospels that the Father answered Jesus and told him that to die was the Will of the Father, that I know of. Jesus chose his pathway, the suffering, the crucifixion from a point of Free Will.  Which the Father accepted as being His Will.

I did like your analogy about the grandson.   Wink  Like he really asks you for advise on a toy.  Cheesy
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