Rubicon
Jr. Member
 Offline
Posts: 79
|
 |
« Reply #90 on: October 05, 2009, 11:48:09 AM » |
|
I'm not expecting you to agree with me on this, nor am I particularly looking to convince you. Not because I don't care. I love you and respect you, but I also know you have to be true to what you believe and respect you for that. I really wanted (and still want) to see the objections that you and others have to certain passages to see if I have overlooked something or am not able to answer for myself what I believe. Just as your honest search lead you away from faith, I am also on an honest search. While I may have a different perspective or frame of reference, it is important to me that I continue to struggle to learn what is true and what is not (for whatever reason). Thanks for helping me with this part of my journey. If there are other passages and you have the time, I would enjoy reading about them.
First Just as your honest search lead you away from faith, I am also on an honest search. It is good to finally hear this from someone who is Christian. It seems that I have found it very hard to get people of faith to admit that a loss of faith could be an honest one. They always say you did it because you were hateful or dishonest or liked to give into Satan or something. You always hear people say that they are just trying to "keep the faith." But what about those who find they just can?t do it anymore. It means a lot to hear you say that. I really still feel like the people of life quest are like another family to me, no matter how much we disagree and how hard it is to relate to some of the ideas and beliefs anymore. Second . If there are other passages and you have the time, I would enjoy reading about them. I really wanted (and still want) to see the objections that you and others have to certain passages to see if I have overlooked something or am not able to answer for myself what I believe.
There are plenty of passages and it does not take much time to find a passage and post it, but I don?t know what else to say that I haven?t already said. Do you want me to repeat earlier debates that have perhaps faded from memory or just post the passage and concisely list critical issues. I don?t know what else to say. I mean, so of the books I have passed on to you raise some good critical issues and do it better than I. Perhaps I am just burnt-out on bible debates and the back and forth. I don?t mind posting, but I don?t know what to say?.. I will try to think of something?. Third Have a good journey. I understand and look forward to hearing from you as you take the journey you are now on. So maybe I don?t have much to say on theology, but I have been thinking that I will post a new thread showing what the start of my journey down a new road has been and try to offer some very tentative thoughts or ideas or first tries that I have been making at a new philosophy. I will still try to find some passages and post them for you. But I am working on typing out something for a new thread in deeper thoughts. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 11:49:52 AM by Rubicon »
|
Logged
|
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
|
|
|
Bruce Blagg
The Silverback
Administrator
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 334
Prrrrr
|
|
« Reply #91 on: October 05, 2009, 05:04:39 PM » |
|
I really still feel like the people of life quest are like another family to me, no matter how much we disagree and how hard it is to relate to some of the ideas and beliefs anymore. Thanks. It means a lot to me to hear you say this. I know the feeling is (and always will be) mutual. I don?t know what else to say. I mean, so of the books I have passed on to you raise some good critical issues and do it better than I. Perhaps I am just burnt-out on bible debates and the back and forth. I don?t mind posting, but I don?t know what to say?.. I will try to think of something?. I don't know that you have to say anything. I am interested in passages that seem contradictory or are a basis for "losing" faith. I've been trying to look at "difficult" passages in the Bible, examining them to see what they mean to me and how they change my spiritual framework. Paul gave me a book by Karl Barth on the misquotes of Jesus which I am still trying to get to. And I also have some of the books you gave me on my desk (but you should see my desk). You know me, if I am afraid to look at what someone else has to say about my faith, then I must not be too sure of my faith.  But I am working on typing out something for a new thread in deeper thoughts. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. By the way, I also read your post under "Evolution" and I will respond, but the answer means I have to define my position first. I've never been as exact as you were in the options; so I'll have to give it some thought. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Paul
|
|
« Reply #92 on: October 05, 2009, 09:33:05 PM » |
|
Rubicon- Good luck on your journey, you may and probably will have a long time of just living life before you can relate to the bible.
You may want to look at the bible not from an apologist viewpoint but from a viewpoint of those things that you can relate to.
I like the theory that Christianity is indeed a new religion that broke away from Judaism but needed to tie itself closely to that religion for the "authenticity" of being an ancient religion so that it could survive and sway those in power at the time. Is it necessary in your mind that everything in the book have to relate to a message that works in today's society? Are you frustrating yourself with the minor problems in making everything relate today instead of looking at it as a commentary on the time and society it was written in.
It is a pandora box . . . but then again that is what it is supposed to be . . . confusing, vague, concise, clear and conflicting all at the same time. There is probably no ONE way to read or interpret the words, but how they affect you is the real message.
You don't have to accept everything as the church has taught, for it is also written that Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will bring you knowledge of what the words really mean. Maybe you should try to be apologetic for how those words affect you, not the church's teachings. To me, it is the apologists that try to convince people that the church has always interpreted the words correctly, when deep down they may not agree either, so their answers seem contrived. That may be why they cannot relate to you as someone who questions.
I found that I had to reinvent Christianity into a form that made sense to me, which doesn't necessarily correspond with church doctrine. I discovered different meanings in the verses that I could relate to. Some day, you will find a belief that fits into your life. Enjoy it, nurture it, and look to question it. By doing so, you will be more satisfied with how you live your life and interact in society.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Rubicon
Jr. Member
Offline
Posts: 79
|
|
« Reply #93 on: October 06, 2009, 05:19:41 AM » |
|
Rubicon- Good luck on your journey, you may and probably will have a long time of just living life before you can relate to the bible.
You may want to look at the bible not from an apologist viewpoint but from a viewpoint of those things that you can relate to.
Is it necessary in your mind that everything in the book have to relate to a message that works in today's society? Are you frustrating yourself with the minor problems in making everything relate today instead of looking at it as a commentary on the time and society it was written in.
I think as a work of literature and a reflection of the values and attitudes of the time I can still relate to the bible. Much of the other stuff I type is trying to give the orthodox view a good fair shot to set the record straight. However, needless to say that has not gone so well, and I just can?t see it the same way anymore. So I am kind of winding that project (of giving Orthodox views a fair chance to persuade me that I am mistaken) to a close for now. I guess I will probably take up the matter later but for now. I feel like I have hit a point where no further progress can be made so I just have to put the matter aside for a while. But I have been reading on a way forward for a while and I am excited about devoting my full attention to such matters. I like the theory that Christianity is indeed a new religion that broke away from Judaism but needed to tie itself closely to that religion for the "authenticity" of being an ancient religion so that it could survive and sway those in power at the time. Very true. I think Bart Ehrman argues this convincingly. Anything new was suspicious or perhaps seditious in the minds of many at that time. Good point. It is a pandora box . . . but then again that is what it is supposed to be . . . confusing, vague, concise, clear and conflicting all at the same time. There is probably no ONE way to read or interpret the words, but how they affect you is the real message.
You don't have to accept everything as the church has taught, for it is also written that Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will bring you knowledge of what the words really mean. Maybe you should try to be apologetic for how those words affect you, not the church's teachings. To me, it is the apologists that try to convince people that the church has always interpreted the words correctly, when deep down they may not agree either, so their answers seem contrived. That may be why they cannot relate to you as someone who questions.
I found that I had to reinvent Christianity into a form that made sense to me, which doesn't necessarily correspond with church doctrine. I discovered different meanings in the verses that I could relate to. Some day, you will find a belief that fits into your life. Enjoy it, nurture it, and look to question it. By doing so, you will be more satisfied with how you live your life and interact in society.
Yeah I think I am going to try to post some passages for Bruce?s enjoyment but I have to move on to a new topic. I am working on starting a new deeper thoughts thread. Hopefully more positive and constructive. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
|
|
|
Rubicon
Jr. Member
Offline
Posts: 79
|
|
« Reply #94 on: October 06, 2009, 05:29:29 AM » |
|
I don?t know what else to say. I mean, so of the books I have passed on to you raise some good critical issues and do it better than I. Perhaps I am just burnt-out on bible debates and the back and forth. I don?t mind posting, but I don?t know what to say?.. I will try to think of something?. I don't know that you have to say anything. I am interested in passages that seem contradictory or are a basis for "losing" faith. I've been trying to look at "difficult" passages in the Bible, examining them to see what they mean to me and how they change my spiritual framework. Paul gave me a book by Karl Barth on the misquotes of Jesus which I am still trying to get to. And I also have some of the books you gave me on my desk (but you should see my desk). You know me, if I am afraid to look at what someone else has to say about my faith, then I must not be too sure of my faith. Well I will try to look up and post some verses for you. BTW Karl Barth? I think you mean Bart Ehrman, but sure, be sure to read Karl Barth too? Isn?t he an important theologian? By the way, I also read your post under "Evolution" and I will respond, but the answer means I have to define my position first. I've never been as exact as you were in the options; so I'll have to give it some thought.
Really? I am surprised by this. You seemed to have such a strong opinion, but just a very vague position on the matter. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
|
|
|
Rubicon
Jr. Member
Offline
Posts: 79
|
|
« Reply #95 on: October 06, 2009, 05:38:38 AM » |
|
Ok here is a passage that really bothered me since the first time I tried to read the bible cover to cover. Sometimes reading cover to cover you find strange stories. I don't think I have to comment much for you to see what one would find objectionable about this passage, mainly human sacrifice and killing to please God. It is like the story of Abraham and Isaac gone horribly wrong. At least there an angel stops Abraham to keep him from committing his "teleological suspension of the ethical" as Keirkegaard would say.
Judges 11 (New International Version)
29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
|
|
|
|
Paul
|
|
« Reply #96 on: October 06, 2009, 09:46:33 PM » |
|
I read "Reading the lines" by Pamela Tamarkin Reis. She is an independent student of the bible and like some of us, has no theological training, but did attend many symposiums, book clubs, discussion groups.
She actually had a plausible answer to this particular story, but I don't remember it at this time. It was in the library.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Bruce Blagg
The Silverback
Administrator
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 334
Prrrrr
|
|
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2009, 11:38:53 AM » |
|
Thanks for the passage Rubicon. I appreciate it.
I've read it before, but want to take some time to see what others have written about it.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Paul
|
|
« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2009, 08:55:24 PM » |
|
Maybe an problematic avenue is the way that most people read the bible. As Rubicon notes, the passage is very unacceptable for someone who loves others and he makes a valid point. Yet, one of benefits and qualities of the bible is that it has NO ONE WAY to be read. The Jews have openly stated that every verse is open to an innumerable amount of interpretations. They see the differences as being evidence that the book is God Inspired. Rubicon finds the quote unacceptable. Bruce may find it as evidence of God's justice. I believe that Pamela Tamarkin Reis found it as a story about being self-centered by the daughter. I found a message that the father was a man of his word, even to the detriment of himself - namely the loss of his daughter. Christine would place this is the realm of queasiness - such a gnashing of teeth in hell . Others may find it historical as the beginning of a religious ceremony that exists even today, although the original meaning may have transformed. Some have looked at the writings as being a shorthand writing style where the reader must try and place themselves into the storyline in the time period written and look at the story in a different manner. To see why and how the shortened version came about. If we only look at the writings from one point of view, then we do a disservice to the writers and other believers. Who is to say that only one way is correct? No one really knows.  Investigating different perspectives will enhance the writings and one's outlook on the events in the bible. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Bruce Blagg
The Silverback
Administrator
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 334
Prrrrr
|
|
« Reply #99 on: October 19, 2009, 04:46:36 PM » |
|
Yes! And no! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Rubicon
Jr. Member
Offline
Posts: 79
|
|
« Reply #100 on: October 22, 2009, 01:11:43 AM » |
|
Investigating different perspectives will enhance the writings and one's outlook on the events in the bible.
I suppose that looking at the passage as literature or mythology I can appreciate it. There are a lot of greek myths that are quite violent, but as a myth, I don't have as much of a problem with it. "If you step on the cracks you'll break your mother's back." Perhaps I could take the bible story as a myth ( myth as in about events that never historically happened, but are told to teach a lesson.) If I take it this way, then it is a non-historical tale about why we should never break a vow. If you break a vow, especially one made to God, bad stuff will happen. Or may be be careful what vow you make, it could come back to bite you in the .... However, if the bible story of Jephtah is historical, then it is a tragedy. The headline would read, "man murders his daughter, citing religious vow as reason for murder." It would be a story in the newspaper to make you cringe.  If you then say it is not only historical, but the word of God. It makes it even worse. I wish we could say this passage was not part of the word of God. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 01:13:56 AM by Rubicon »
|
Logged
|
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
|
|
|
Rubicon
Jr. Member
Offline
Posts: 79
|
|
« Reply #101 on: October 22, 2009, 01:56:35 AM » |
|
As promised here are some more ?red flags? for your consideration as requested. I started looking through the book of Joshua to find the passage about the slaughter of the Amalakites and this issues of God commanding violence upon an entire group of people for extermination. But then I came upon this passage, and the interpretation given by the bible of the bloody events of the last few passages. So here is the passage and a verse a few chapters hence that seems to interpret the events and what God wanted to happen, with brief commentary on the red flags it raises. Joshua 8 Ai Destroyed 1 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Take the whole army with you, and go up and attack Ai. For I have delivered into your hands the king of Ai, his people, his city and his land. 2 You shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king, except that you may carry off their plunder and livestock for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." 18 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Hold out toward Ai the javelin that is in your hand, for into your hand I will deliver the city." So Joshua held out his javelin toward Ai. 19 As soon as he did this, the men in the ambush rose quickly from their position and rushed forward. They entered the city and captured it and quickly set it on fire. 20 The men of Ai looked back and saw the smoke of the city rising against the sky, but they had no chance to escape in any direction, for the Israelites who had been fleeing toward the desert had turned back against their pursuers. 21 For when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city and that smoke was going up from the city, they turned around and attacked the men of Ai. 22 The men of the ambush also came out of the city against them, so that they were caught in the middle, with Israelites on both sides. Israel cut them down, leaving them neither survivors nor fugitives. 23 But they took the king of Ai alive and brought him to Joshua. 24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the desert where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. 25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day?all the people of Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed [a] all who lived in Ai. 27 But Israel did carry off for themselves the livestock and plunder of this city, as the LORD had instructed Joshua. If someone claimed God told them to kill 12,000 people, would you think it was a revelation? If you heard voices in your head telling you to do the acts described above, would you think that it was a voice from God? (sarcasm)  Seriously though, the issue is divinely commanded violence. Does God ever command his servants to murder or genocide? How can we view this as the word of God? Perhaps it is the books of Joshua?s own interpretation of these bloody wars that is most disturbing. Joshua 11 20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded MosesHow do we view these bloody wars as the word of God? It seems that the bible wants us to think that the Lord wanted to "destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy." And then there is the issue of freewill. You repeatedly say that God is gentleman (with a tophat even ) and does not over-ride freewill, unless I have misunderstood you. Does not the bible teach here and in exodus that God often ?hardens our hearts? there by negating free-will, which modern theologians are so keen on? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 01:58:56 AM by Rubicon »
|
Logged
|
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
|
|
|
|
Paul
|
|
« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2009, 10:33:25 PM » |
|
Or as you mention Freewill by modern theologians. What does that entail? The verse indicates as you have noted, a very angry and demanding God. Yet, with freewill also comes free interpretation of an actual event. Did God really "harden the hearts" or was that a convenient line to justify the "deed"?
If becomes again a belief problem. If you believe in Free will then you have to accept that the words could have been changed for political or personal reasons to justify a human position. Free will would also imply that God allows humankind to act as we wish to each other and that our actions would then be God's Will.
If you believe that the word is infallible, then God does not allow Free Will to humans but merely we are children being directed by an outside force which we cannot control.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Bruce Blagg
The Silverback
Administrator
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 334
Prrrrr
|
|
« Reply #103 on: November 03, 2009, 02:33:58 PM » |
|
Free will would also imply that God allows humankind to act as we wish to each other and that our actions would then be God's Will. What??? Free will only implies a separate will. It does not imply concurrence of the other will, nor does it imply equality with the other will. But I am interested to see how you got there. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Paul
|
|
« Reply #104 on: November 04, 2009, 11:35:44 PM » |
|
just for you - confusion 101
1. free will = separate will
2. God's gift to humans = free will (separate will) from God
3. God's Will for humans is to accept the Gift of free will
Therefore, God's will is for humans to have free will and to act accordingly which may or may not be in accordance with God's own morals or desires for behavior of humans.
As noted in the bible, references to God's (Lord's) unfailing love and faithfulnesstoward humankind, would indicate that God's unconditional love may not be equal to God's own morals. It is an indication that God accepts Human Will as it occurs without interfering, even if God found it distasteful.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
