I would decline the invitation.

I don't believe in the supernatural, so I don't feel I should be taking part in a ceremony which attempts to conjure any sort of supernatural blessing.

Honest answers, I respect and honor that.

However, it does show that humans will only go so far on love, charity and goodwill toward each other until it has to do with their own personal beliefs and unfortunately their personal agendas.

You both started out exceeding well in the exercise, wanting to do the right thing with no qualms. Then when you are asked to go beyond your own personal beliefs to help another person, no matter how right it was, no matter that it was for an improvement in their lives, no matter what political wrongs were being heaped on them, neither could overcome your ulterior agendas.

Anxiety, your agenda is to cure the world of the supernatural. Michelle, yours is to bring everyone to Jesus.

If the common goal for both the supernatural and the natural beliefs is to heal the injustice, care for each other, then it will take overcoming our own agendas to accomplish this. 

Anxiety, in a moral based philosophy, would it not be based on mankinds' own natural judgement for the betterment of the human reace regardless of any supernatural belief to improve the lot of the world?

Michelle, did not Jesus die on the cross for the sins of everyone in the world? Regardless of their religion at the time? Did Jesus not help and heal people regardless of their beliefs.

So the experiment goes on.   

Ghandi - a Hindu - Mother Theresa - a Catholic. Both were able to overcome their personal agendas for the well being of the human race. Both lived in India. Both honored, respected and participated in different types of religious ceremonies, meetings and discussions to help their fellow humans. Yet, both were true in their personal beliefs. They also did not require, pray or try to influence anyone they helped to make any decisions on the person's belief system.

Quite interesting.  Two examples, how many more can we name?  Are we unable to mimic what these people did?  They were not gods, but mere humans. How hard is it to mimic their actions?

I have to get a copy of that book.    Interesting, not in the library system as of yet.  Will have to go on-line at Amazon I suppose. 

I see your point of view, but this seems to be the barrier to move forward toward the benefit of those less fortunate. 

Suggestions on how to overcome this barrier? 

I want to thank you and Michelle for stepping up to the plate and going with your personal thoughts.  You both are examples of truly caring people looking for the best in everyone.  Couldn't have asked for better bloggers to go with the experiment.

I still expect both of you to come out to the Farm and help with demolition in the near future and planting of the fall crops. 

I'm not sure how you got to the conclusion that I have an agenda.     Yes, I'd like to see everyone know Jesus, but I would hardly call that an agenda (maybe because "agenda" has a negative connotation for me).  I would give to those people freely, without ever expecting anything, including a "conversion," in return.  I don't think that praying for someone to know Someone is an agenda.  I also don't think it has anything to do with Jesus dying for everyone.  (BTW - the answers are yes, yes, and yes).  But I already said that I would help them and attend their service.  Simply because I'm not sure about receiving a Hindu blessing does not, in my opinion, prove that I "will only go so far on love, charity and goodwill toward each other" because of  my "own agenda."  Helping them is love, charity and goodwill, not accepting a blessing.

I'm assuming that they would know that I'm a Christian.  I'm also assuming that they would not take offense at me preferring not to be blessed by their gods, the way I wouldn't be offended at someone refusing for me to pray for them. 




You are welcome   And I'd love to come out and help, I just have to contend w/ 2 little ones!    No babysiter for the baby! 

I believe the problem that's causing the struggle is the ego.  A long time ago I learned that we often think about love, compassion, giving, etc. as something that we should do freely for those less fortunate.  Then we try to be humble when they want to do something for us, something as simple as a thank you, offer something that is of value to them, then we nonchalantly say to them, none is necessary it was my pleasure to be of service.

But what are we really saying to them? Maybe, subconsciously that they are below us, we are a little bit higher then them, and our morals demand that we help the less fortunate without considering any repayment. We along with our ego have taken away the basic dignity from that person by refusing their thanks. It completes their self worthiness and it allows them to be grateful and giving at the same time. It is really not about us, but about allowing that other person basic dignity to show in their own style gratitude.

Example: Christine has a friend who is a devout Muslim, I know them but the women are much more connected as friends.  Her son, a super devout Muslim was accepted into the Air Force Academy and was cleared to be the First Muslim pilot of the most advanced F18 fighter jet in the US Air Force. 

He became a great pilot which opened the doors for other Muslims to be accepted in the arm forces.  Then one day, while training in a combat preparedness fight, his jet ended up colliding with another one.  He managed to turn his jet enough before impact that the other pilot and co-pilot ejected safely, his own co-pilot also made it safely. He however died when a piece of the wreckage struck him as he ejected. He was credited by the other pilot and co-pilot for saving their lives, his quick action put him in great danger but it also cleared the way for the others to be saved.

The mother was of course in total grief with the news that her son was killed.  She ended up calling Christine to come sit with her so that she could grieve. Christine went and helped this woman through the day.  Christine listened to this mother cry, ask God why, pray her own Muslim prayers for her son, while allowing Christine to console her for the rest of the day. Christine was a friend and someone giving of herself to help another. That day, Christine says that she came to an awareness that still til this day, gives her difficulty with her own beliefs. She thought, "How can I go and be of service to this woman who is enduring incredible pain and suffering for the loss of her child, who is Muslim, while my belief says, that the son will go to hell because of his belief."  "I could not look this woman in the eye and think that I could comfort her with my belief, for it would be hypocrisy on my part." God spoke to her heart and she had an epiphany that God would accept this man, and that she was to allow the woman dignity. So, she listened to the prayers, eat a special meal with them, allowed herself to be a part of their religion for the time they were together. She let her ego go, for the benefit of the mother's and family's dignity.

When our actions toward other people are based on a narrow vision of our faith or lack of faith, then we are doing not only ourselves but others an injustice. Our ego does not allow them the dignity to be thankful and grateful in their own ways for having you in their lives,

That is the struggle.

 

The most ideal situation would be to have everything you believe be true by nature, not opinion, not perception, but in reality. Unfortunately it is impossible to know whether it is or not. It is this doubt along with certain elements of reason that is the birthplace of skepticism.

You don't want to use the word agenda because what you believe you're doing is correct -- it is by nature a true thing. And anything that is true, not by matter of opinion, but by fact, can never logically have any agenda other than to further the truth and invoke knowledge.

Nice response!  The sharing of information about good things in your life is something that we do all the time in all conversations.  Ask me how I am . "Excellent!" If the person wants to know why, then I am able to share without an agenda.  If at the same time they say they are also having an "Excellent" day; we can converse on the attributes in an open dialog without the need to prove the other person is less fortunate than in their "Excellence". We may wish each other an even better day and depart with a happy thought about the other person who we have met.  It is when one tries to make the other person "convert" to their thought in an effort to promote their own happiness or excellence that it becomes an agenda.


Michelle, great question - here is my convoluted answer which may confuse you.  I apologize and ask that you keep after me until I can simplify it into something that people can understand. Sometimes I write so I understand my thoughts but others don't.

Of course you can think of yourself. That is free will. If you as a Christian fear something in the spiritual realm then it can become real through your thoughts and you do have the choice of self preservation.  If you believe Jesus spoke the truth in the beatitudes,

Matthew 5: 3 ?God blesses those who are poor and realize their need for him, for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.The poor do not have the willpower, ability of time or monies to be able to influence others, you as a messenger from God represent God's promise to help them when they need it.
4 God blesses those who mourn, for they will be comforted. They have sought the relief from their problems and you were sent to bring them comfort even if you do not win
5 God blesses those who are humble, for they will inherit the whole earth. Do the work joyously and as a blessing to strangers without having an agenda (conversion)
6 God blesses those who hunger and thirst for justice, for they will be satisfied. Fight for those who are being persecuted regardless of belief, color, sex; just being human is all that is required. 
7 God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Show others the mercy of your belief, do not attack them, debate them about what is wrong or right, they are seeking love and understanding, give it freely to them. 
8 God blesses those whose hearts are pure, for they will see God. Doing things out of the pureness of love, allows you to see how much God has provided to you in your own life, through the example of what those you are helping have to deal with.
9 God blesses those who work for peace, for they will be called the children of God. Peace also means acceptance of the strangeness of others in return for the knowledge you gain from others along with understanding of each other.


The question in your heart is to answer the beatitudes honestly and as a follower of Christ.  These are the seven disciplines that Jesus has asked you as a believer to accept and hold strong to.  This is where I find that the church is deficient in teaching.

As a non-believer, they still apply whether one does without any deity at all. They are non-violent, places a value on dignity of others,  fights injustice and as the golden rule would have us do  - do unto others as you would have them do to you.


I find that there is nothing wrong with praying silently along with the Hindus and asking for the light of Jesus to be with you and all who are gathered there and to let only love and goodness come out of this night.  You are not slighting them at all, you are praying silently to your God, without making a scene, it is between you and your God, in the same light you are giving them the dignity of showing you  their love and gratefulness for your help. You also cover the base on self preservation and selfishness.

As an personal example, I do not believe in the Christian Jesus as savior, so when I sing along with everyone in service, I change the words Jesus, Lord, Christ to what I believe in - The Universe.  I had discussions with Bruce about this, and until now he was one of the few who know what I say when we have worship service. I detract nothing away from the rest of the congregation or their beliefs. I don't make a spectacle except of course holding onto my wife in a hug,  Yet, I have stayed true to my belief, allowed the congregation to have their belief and enjoy what they are doing. I even accept the blessings and prayers that are given out. I understand that they are seeking love, peace and joy and not my conversion at the time. I have no fear that something terrible will happen to me from the service, except being called on to answer a question out loud.  I am solid enough in my own faith not be afraid.