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Author Topic: One of the worst movements to date  (Read 406 times)
Anxiety
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« on: July 20, 2009, 11:45:23 PM »

http://www.noseparation.org/

Related article:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/article1020144.ece

"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."

That quote is boldly placed on their website and attributed to George Washington. This is a lie. George Washington never said this.

From http://religioustolerance.org

Quote
A famous "quotation: by George Washington:

According to about 580 web sites, George Washington stated:

    "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." 7

According to Wikipedia:

    "Washington is known to have made some official statements of public piety, but this is not one of them. Though this assertion is very widely reported to have been said in Washington's Farewell Address (17 September 1796), this is not actually the case, as any search of the documents would reveal.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 11:48:27 PM by Anxiety » Logged

Michelle
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2009, 08:19:55 PM »

Interesting.  Wasn't the separation of church and state originally for the benefit of the church, not the state, like most believe today?   It's been a long time since I've looked at this issue, though.
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Anxiety
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 08:22:28 PM »

Well, it helps both ways. The founders knew their religious history, and states that were ruled by religion almost always tended towards tyranny.
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Michelle
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 08:33:54 PM »

Makes sense - seems like everything reverts back to "rules, rules, rules"
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Paul
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 10:58:50 PM »

Separation of church and state also keeps everyone free to discuss and legislate the entire populace fairly. 

Unfortunately, most of those who want it to be no separation is the conservative Christian organizations.  How would they feel if the won this legislation and an Islamic/ Hindu/Buddhist became president and decided that Christianity was outdated and illegal?  That the religion of the president was the only one allowed in America. 

To join the two together is a dangerous two edge sword.
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 05:21:20 PM »

Most specifically, it was intended to keep the state from mandating it's citizens to practice a particular religion, or to outlaw another. Many of the original colonists were victims of religious persecution who came to the colonies in order to have freedom to worship as they chose.

To want to repeal that constitutional requirement is... silly at best. Just as it keeps certain things from being the way that those people like, it also protects them from the government suddenly shutting down their own churches.
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"Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming.  This is a fault.

        Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the cultivated.  For these there is hope.
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Bruce Blagg
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2009, 04:57:47 PM »

Quote
Most specifically, it was intended to keep the state from mandating it's citizens to practice a particular religion, or to outlaw another. Many of the original colonists were victims of religious persecution who came to the colonies in order to have freedom to worship as they chose.

Well said, it was never the intention of the founding fathers to make government secular.  Divine providence, and the moral obligation found therein, was meant to be a part of our society and culture.

As for George Washington's quote, here is what he really said (I like it even better) ...

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest prop of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge in the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle... Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it?" George Washington, Farewell Address, To his cabinet, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; September 17, 1796.

I believe Washington made it clear that "religion and morality" are "indispensable supports" of government ... and these words were said to the "governing" and not to the "governed".
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2009, 08:27:32 PM »

I also add that religion does not create tyrannical states, but rather corrupt leaders with few or no checks on their power cause tyranny. Let's not forget also that power corrupts. In the absence of religion, the government would merely find another excuse to keep their populace in check. It is for the good of the fatherland, comrade.
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"Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming.  This is a fault.

        Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the cultivated.  For these there is hope.
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Bruce Blagg
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2009, 09:35:12 AM »

I can agree with that.  Well said.
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Anxiety
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2009, 12:14:01 PM »

With anything it's going to be people who are the ones who intentionally hurt us  because they are the only ones who can do so besides wild animals (if you even believe they have will/sapience).

You can blame it on institutions or systems like religion, but their first cause could be said to be people as well.

Moral of the story: people suck.
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2009, 01:33:05 PM »

Moral of the story: people suck.
I agree.  Shocked
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"Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming.  This is a fault.

        Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the cultivated.  For these there is hope.
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USFEngineer
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2009, 05:24:03 PM »

Moral of the story: people suck.
I agree.  Shocked

You would agree with that, Overseer.
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A child recently asked me what eight times four is. I thought about it for a while. I put together some experiments. I ran some tests. I searched through numerous published articles on number theory.
I then came back to the child and responded, "What's a 'four'?"
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2009, 05:32:31 PM »

Moral of the story: people suck.
I agree.  Shocked

You would agree with that, Overseer.

Thank you for illustrating my point.
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"Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming.  This is a fault.

        Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the cultivated.  For these there is hope.
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Michelle
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2009, 01:18:08 PM »

What's the sermon title this week?  Dancing w/ porcupines??  Hope you guys can make it and listen!!!!!!   police angel laugh Grin
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Bruce Blagg
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« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2009, 06:30:29 PM »

I agree!   laugh LOL
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