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Author Topic: Our Thoughts : How to control them  (Read 371 times)
Santosh
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« on: August 05, 2009, 06:20:33 AM »

How do I get control over my thoughts?  What I mean by that is, our mind is full of thoughts, sometimes evil/ bad and sometimes good.  We have to choose between the bad and good.  A lot of times I fail by choosing the bad thoughts.  So, how do I think only the good thoughts and shun the bad ones?

 Huh?
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Anxiety
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 02:05:19 PM »

You could have someone control them for you! If you want to participate, I'm very interested in helping.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control:
    * Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
    * Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
    * Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
    * Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
    * Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
    * Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clich?s, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking
    * Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
    * Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.
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Paul
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 08:52:18 PM »

One first must be able to discern bad thoughts from good thoughts. 
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Anxiety
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 09:06:53 PM »

One first must be able to discern bad thoughts from good thoughts. 

Ethics? No way, that's just witchcraft.
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Paul
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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2009, 06:01:39 AM »

Look who's talking. :Smiley

Mr. let me help you with Mystical Manipulation.

Witchcraft is not bad . . . . most of the time.  Cheesy

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Bruce Blagg
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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2009, 12:30:43 PM »

Santosh,

Sorry for the brief, humorous interlude from my compatriots.  Smiley

St. Paul had a very similar question.  It is found in Romans 7:15-24.  Here are some excerpts:

"I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it.  Instead, I do what I hate.  ...  I want to do what is good, but I don't.  I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway.  ...  I have discovered this principle of life --- that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong."

Paul goes on to diagnose the problem.  He writes,

"But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.  ...  I love God's law with all my heart.  But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind.  This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me."

When we read this, we often personify sin making it an independent, separate will.  But that is not what is meant here.  The power of sin is the habits, tendencies, addictions, thought patterns and social training that we have cultivated before we made the decision to follow Christ.  Psychologists tell us that by the age of four over 90% of our values are already set and are based on what we saw and heard from our parents (this is the truth behind the verses in the Scriptures that the sin of one generation is passed down to the next and so on --- we learn them at a young age from our parents).  Our society defines what sexuality is and we take in hours and hours of it and soon find it effecting our thoughts and values.  And sin itself can produce a pleasure that is addicting to the soul, which is also the power of sin.  Pornography, for example, is now considered by psychologists and sociologists to be as addictive as cocaine because of the chemicals released in our bodies when we look at these pictures.  Anyway, you get the idea.  There is a "power" to "sin" that wars with our desire to do what we believe is right.

Paul, after diagnosing the problem, writes

"Oh, what a miserable person I am!  Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?"

And if we stop there, it is a miserable situation and one of no hope.  But Paul doesn't stop there, he then writes ...

"Thank God!  The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord."

Notice two things.  The answer is NOT Jesus Christ, but it is "in" Jesus Christ.  And two, if this is the complete answer, then we are still in trouble.  For too long, some Christian teachers of being giving this simple answer, and it doesn't help a lot of people.  But Paul didn't give a simple answer and he didn't stop there.  Paul goes on to write ...

"So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus."

In other words, don't condemn yourself for your failings and don't let others condemn you, because Christ already knew that you would fail and yet he loved you and accepted you when you came to him.  Condemnation robs us of energy, focus and progress.  It is never, ever beneficial (conviction is, but not condemnation).  Stop condemning yourself.  But that isn't enough.  Paul goes on ...

"And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death."  In other words, there is now a spiritual connectedness (this is why it is "in" Christ for it is Christ's Spirit), that "leads" you and "helps" you to do and go the right way.

So how do we transition from the "wrong" thoughts to the "right" thoughts?  Here are some things to thing about:

1) Paul writes in Galatians 5 that we are to yield ourselves to the leading of the Spirit.  Each day say a simple prayer asking the Spirit to help you to choose the "good" thoughts and not the "bad".  Give Him permission to speak loudly into your soul when needed.  And then try each time to follow His leading.  You will find it harder at first, but it will become easier as you go along.
2) Paul writes in Romans 12 that we need to be "transformed" through "the renewing of our mind".  How do we change the way we think?  Through the Scriptures as brought alive by the Spirit.  Look for Scriptures that address the areas you have the hardest time with.  Memorize and meditate on those scriptures.  Ask the Holy Spirit to bring them to your remembrance as you go through these situations.
3) And no condemnation when you fail.  You are already forgiven.  Just ask God to forgive you and to help you as you continue on the journey of becoming more like Christ.
4) If a habit or thought pattern becomes too difficult to break, then seek out someone who loves you and you can trust, and ask them to be an accountability partner with you.  James wrote that we should confess our sins to one another.  And then have your accountability partner pray for you and with you as you continue to grow and overcome a particular habit.

I know this is kind of long, but I wanted to give you some scriptures and some practical ideas on how to begin the journey of "renewing the mind".  At the least, maybe this will give create some other questions or comments that might help you your questions.
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Anxiety
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2009, 02:47:20 PM »

"Here is how it works: first you decide to treat the object whose behavior is to be predicted as a rational agent; then you figure out what beliefs that agent ought to have, given its place in the world and its purpose. Then you figure out what desires it ought to have, on the same considerations, and finally you predict that this rational agent will act to further its goals in the light of its beliefs. A little practical reasoning from the chosen set of beliefs and desires will in most instances yield a decision about what the agent ought to do; that is what you predict the agent will do." (Daniel Dennett, The Intentional Stance, p. 17)
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Paul
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2009, 10:03:14 PM »

So Santosh - what's causing you to have difficulty with good and bad thoughts?  It would help us in trying to discuss something that would be relevant to why you posted instead of giving you academic answers.

Sometimes we forget to find out what motivated someone to post a question on the blog. We get caught up in trying to dialogue on an answer that we missed the original intent of the person who asked the question.
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Santosh
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2009, 05:47:00 AM »

Apologize for not responding quicker, did not check the forum, as I was busy.

Bruce, thanks for your detailed, but practical answer. 

Paul,  as to your question, I am a believer in Christ.  But, I struggle a lot with sexual thoughts, which I have had before I came to know Christ.  I found it is very easy to say that you should choose the good thoughts, when one has dwelled in the muck for years and literally enjoy the bad thoughts.  In most instances when I encountered a situation where I had to decide between a good and bad thought I have failed.  I have prayed hard on this and always faltered.  Hence this question.  I wanted to find a way to set myself free from this weakness.  I feel miserable when I fail, and pray that I should not do it again.

I have realized that it is a bondage that Satan has put in me and I have been praying for God to set me free.  Also, I have tried to keep myself busy, specially my mind, by reading more, working more, etc.
But, that is where I stand...

I think as Bruce mentioned, an accountability partner would be good, if I can find one.
 
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Paul
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2009, 06:12:18 AM »

Santosh- Thanks for sharing what your point of view is so that we can tailor our answers to that subject matter.

If you have read some of my other postings, you will find that I am quite liberal on Christian doctrine and theology.  Bruce gave you some great verses and information which from your latest posting may be where you will feel more comfortable finding your answers.

For me, there is no right, no wrong decisions.  There is only the decision.  You can either say yes, no or I don't know wherein you allow another or circumstances to make the decision for you.  Any way that you choose a decision is being made.

Yes, a lot of decisions will go bad, but do they?  Looking back over my life, the decisions that went poorly for me at the time ended up being blessings for me.  I look at decision making as merely a reflection of my thoughts at that moment.  I don't have bad/good thoughts. I have thoughts. 

In Judaism, Satan is known as the ego.  It is what keeps us from accepting responsibility for being loving, and accepting of others.  Are sexual thoughts bad?  No, do you believe that God did not give us that emotions so that mankind could reproduce and flourish.  It is written that God told Adam and Eve to go and flourish.  So, without sexual thoughts, that would not have happened.  Now if you allow sexual thoughts to become so prevalent in your life, that you want to do harm to another, cause them to lose dignity, become of no value as a equal then yes, sexuality is a problem in your life.  Was it a bad thought, no, it is the consequences that you are choosing to allow to happen that are hurting you and others.  Then at that point, you seek help.  Jesus was known for forgiving people all the time.  You should learn to forgive yourself for not trusting that you have the ability to control your own emotions.  If you want to say this is a battle between  Satan and God, then it is really a battle between your ego of selfishness and the love of humanity that is the issue.  When you make the problem someone or something outside of you, then it is always easy to blame and feel inadequate. 

Unfortunately, I find that the doctrine of Christianity over the years has endorsed this situation of non-worthiness.

 
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Paul
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2009, 07:40:20 PM »

I have realized that it is a bondage that Satan has put in me and I have been praying for God to set me free.  Also, I have tried to keep myself busy, specially my mind, by reading more, working more, etc.
But, that is where I stand...

So let me think this through. . .   You have a sexual problem that you claim is the work of Satan.  You have prayed to God for a solution.  You keep your mind occupied and trying to focus elsewhere.  God doesn't seem to be answering.

In the bible Satan role is to try to occupy one's mind and thoughts away from what God has intended.
God allows Satan this ability so that God can show who is true to Him.
In this perspective the bondage is really from/with the blessing of God.

God always allows for a solution to a problem.  It just may not be what you are looking or expecting.

By keeping your mind focused you are cluttering up your mind with trash - thereby not receiving the solution you are seeking.
Eastern religions will teach to clear your mind of all thoughts and trash and only then will you be enlightened.

God gave you the free will to receive information and act on it in any way that you desire.

Which then brings us to  this . . .

God has blessed this problem for you. You are not listening as you are too busy trying to avoid the problem. You have chosen to ignore what God has provided to you in thoughts, desires, and sights so that you can learn to live with this "problem" in moderation as A. Paul would say.  You have chosen the path of non responsibility for your actions.

You may even have to look at how you view your religion to see if this "problem" conflicts with your religion. 

Does your doctrine obey the two commandments that Jesus said were the most important? Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.  Rabbi Hillel also ended that statement with "the rest is just commentary". 

Are you overconcerned with all the rules in the bible and doctrine from the church?  If you look at your "problem" based on the above, would you have such consternation?


 
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Anxiety
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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2009, 05:25:16 PM »

Can a natural uncontrollable response ever be shameful or bad?
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Bruce Blagg
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2009, 09:01:14 PM »

Quote
In this perspective the bondage is really from/with the blessing of God.

Just because God allows does not mean he condones and especially does not mean he blesses.  Since he allows free will, the choices being made may not of necessity represent what he wants or desires.  Satan also has free will, and his will is represented as being contrary to God's will.  I would not represent what Satan does as "from" or "blessed by" God.  In fact, James addresses this in James 1:13, "And remember, when you are tempted, do not say, "God is tempting me."  God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else."

Quote
Can a natural uncontrollable response ever be shameful or bad?

Depends on what you mean by "uncontrollable".  If there is no ability to make a conscious decision to do or not do that is one thing.  If there is an ability to make a conscious decision, but the decision is difficult, even seemingly impossible, then that is another.  What were you thinking of when you used the word?

To Santos:

When I find that I have a habit that I can not seem to break and I believe that the habit is not blessing to God, then I have found some help by praying a prayer that David wrote.  Psalm 119:34 reads, "Give me understanding and I will obey your instructions; I will put them into practice with all my heart."  Often we have a difficult time because we don't understand FULLY why we should not do something.  Seeing it from God's perspective usually helps us to realize how we are hurting ourselves and others, and as we develop this understanding we will find it easier to obey.  Don't believe this is the complete answer, but try praying this when you feel like you are about to do something that you don't feel you should do.
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Paul
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2009, 09:18:01 PM »

 
Can a natural uncontrollable response ever be shameful or bad?

In general terms I would have to agree with you.  In extremes situations it can be shameful or bad, but that is with all natural bodily responses.

On further contemplation to Santosh,  Christianity in general agrees with the Eucharist (last supper) and the general meaning of the resurrection - (proof that Jesus was God and forgiveness of all sins) then one must face one of those natural conflicts in the religion itself.

1. Jesus died for all ours sins to be forgiven by God against mankind.
2. Man is naturally sinful and can never be found perfect enough to win forgiveness from God.

Here is the conflict -  which is it? 

If 1. is true then there cannot be a bondage placed on you from Satan. For your sins have already been forgiven and absolved through Jesus. 
If 2. then Jesus did not die for everyone's sin and no one will ever be forgiven or get to heaven.

So why is it that church doctrine and christians all want to point out flaws or particular behavior  as "sins" that need to be repented from? That the laws of the Judaic bible are still in place and you won't get to heaven.
Ex. Gays - just one of the many examples I know, but it is a sexual problem - along with molestation - all the other so-called sexual behaviors - adultery, prostitution, intercourse before marriage can be placed into a different category. They are possibly performed for survival, advancement in societal ranking, false assurances of what love is.

Gay is a natural response.  I had four gay employees who were as loving, charitable, moralistic and religious as any heterosexual person that I know.  They are all now close friends of mine and Christine's. Being Gay is not forbidden in the bible, only the act of intercourse between individuals is named as a sin.  Now, the rub, christianity and other religions find this behavior an aberration, and totally unacceptable to the point that they are shunned from the church, brought to the public eye as despicable to the point of being thrown out of their denominations.

If they are going to use that the rules only apply "with belief that Jesus is Lord and Savior", then explain how a Gay who is religious and believes that thought is still ineligible for heaven.

Bruce also has some good advice - we just disagree on how God interacts with mankind. Grin  I am in the camp that agrees with James 1:13 but also feel that while God may not tempt, God certainly allows it to happen. As is illustrated in the story of Job. 

Prayer is a good way to help sort out and clear your thoughts on a problem.  Just be patient, the answer doesn't always pop into your head but will be presented to you in a different manner. 

Hope all our different perspectives can give you a more calming effect to your situation.


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Anxiety
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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2009, 03:05:56 AM »

Regarding "natural responses"

You agree with my question?  Huh?

Anywho, it is evident that we are not in control of everything, right? And I must assume that you give some credit to psychology and psychiatry in terms of what may be predicted from environmental and chemical inputs.

This brings up a whole slew of legal and ethical questions. For instance, if a person takes, or is forced to take a drug which profoundly alters his or her state of mind, is he or she entirely responsible for the actions under the influence of said drugs? 

Is it different if they consented to take the drugs? If they were forced? If they consented to take them, but were ignorant of their effects? If they were convinced to take them, or pressured to take them?

Since we're giving out personal opinions on the topic at hand, here's mine: It's all bunk. This business that you should be ashamed of sexual thoughts and desires is nonsense. This way of thinking sometimes even leads to incredible perversions by not embracing a completely natural response (see: frustrated rapists, pedophiles, etc.)

"...there have been numerous studies indicating that excessive repression of the sexual instinct leads to an increase in the overall level of aggression in a given society. Societies forbidding premarital sex are plagued by acts of rage, and tend to have higher rates of crime and violence. There may be a link between sexual repression and aggression, insensitivity, criminal behaviour, and a greater likelihood of killing and torturing enemies."
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