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Author Topic: would Jesus be considered a Capitalist or Socialist or Communist?  (Read 1334 times)
Paul
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« on: November 12, 2009, 08:58:31 PM »

If Christ followers are to emulate Jesus, a question about how do we look at society? Which type of society would best define how Jesus looked at life. 

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Michelle
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2009, 09:28:09 AM »

Can we even fit him into one of those molds?   Huh?
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2009, 12:55:37 PM »

As far as I know, the only economic statement he ever made was "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" when asked about whether it was right to pay taxes or not... (Luke 20:20-26).
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"Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming.  This is a fault.

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Paul
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2009, 07:44:14 PM »

Good question Michelle Cool

Would he be a combination of them? 
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Paul
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2009, 07:45:50 PM »

As far as I know, the only economic statement he ever made was "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" when asked about whether it was right to pay taxes or not... (Luke 20:20-26).

He did not have a lot to say about economics per se.  But what about his teachings?  His actions? What instructions that he gave to his disciples and to others would indicate how he viewed society?

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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2009, 08:58:05 PM »

As far as I know, the only economic statement he ever made was "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" when asked about whether it was right to pay taxes or not... (Luke 20:20-26).

He did not have a lot to say about economics per se.  But what about his teachings?  His actions? What instructions that he gave to his disciples and to others would indicate how he viewed society?



OK ok, I won't give a short answer this time. The tough part about it is that the Achille's heel of any economic system is the same all across the board, and Jesus was surely aware of this: human beings. So long as there are corrupt individuals, there will be problems in economics. On paper, communism sounds great: a classless, stateless system where every individual is given exactly as many goods and services as s/he needs. In reality, we had the Soviet Union. Corrupt gov't officials remained rich, while the working class was dirt poor, having to wait on heavily rationed commodities, and since they knew they'd get the same pay no matter how much they worked, there was little incentive to work hard.

Capitalism works better, I think, in part because it assumes people will be selfish. So long as the market is free and supply/demand is left to work it's magic, and there is active competition everything works great. The government would step in where it needs to (laws against monopolies; see Standard Oil), and otherwise let things go as they will. Problem is, we have a (very) corrupt government that's looking after the interests of the large corporations, instead of the common good of society; e.g. giving GM--a company that was doing badly BEFORE the recession--big bucks so that they can keep running their crappy company poorly(sounds like communism there, actually...), rewarding bankers who screwed over our economy by being greedy instead of having passed laws to prevent it from happening in the first place, etc. Meanwhile passing laws that interfere with normal supply and demand in ways that are unhealthy for the economy, such as paying farmers not to grow food to artificially raise food prices, etc. (I'm leaving out some because I don't want to spur an off-topic debate).

Socialism's main goal is to have as many people as possible (preferably everyone) involved in economic decisions. The way most of our elections go, and the most common intelligence level of Americans, I think it's a very bad idea. However, ideally, if everyone was educated and researched their decisions before voting, it could work well. I also like the idea of mixed capitalist/socialist economy where business are generally free to do as they see fit, but with some kind of fences set up so they don't wander into stupid territory, such as subprime loans.

tl;dr version, I have no idea which system Jesus would support. I think he would want a system where everyone was treated fairly and had opportunity to voice their opinions, but at the same time, he would know that people are corrupt, and very bad things can happen if any one group or set of groups (think the circle of evil of healthcare: doctors, insurance, pharmaceuticals) have too much power.

Really, I think that the ideal situation would be for society to follow the examples seen in Acts, where all are committed to helping those who are less fortunate themselves in the best way they can be helped (i.e. not necessarily throwing money at them). But, that was a small subset of Roman society, and such a subculture hasn't existed since then (to my knowledge).
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"Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming.  This is a fault.

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Paul
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2009, 08:19:00 AM »

Nice analysis overseer.  I agree with your "Achilles' heel" being human greed for all economic systems. It has always been that way.

In your suggestion of merging Capitalism and Communism, there is a additional problem that as greed takes more control of each it actually becomes Fascism. (Wikipedia) In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism of unrestrained capitalism and the severe control of state communism.This was to be achieved by establishing significant government control over business and labour (Mussolini called his nation's system "the corporate state"). The down side to this system is (wikipedia)Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the government and the fascist movement. Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept, which almost goes back to Dictorial or Monarchy systems.

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Really, I think that the ideal situation would be for society to follow the examples seen in Acts, where all are committed to helping those who are less fortunate themselves in the best way they can be helped (i.e. not necessarily throwing money at them). But, that was a small subset of Roman society, and such a subculture hasn't existed since then (to my knowledge).

Like this train of thought.  One question is why is this subset of Roman society not existed within the Christian community?
The other is: Did Jesus even care about the economic system in place? 
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2009, 08:30:12 AM »

Like this train of thought.  One question is why is this subset of Roman society not existed within the Christian community?
The other is: Did Jesus even care about the economic system in place? 

My thoughts exactly. I think, and I'm just guessing here at the moment, is that with the forming and formalization of the Catholic Church and their need to be seen as the mediators between God and man, and the large amounts of corruption that was there, is that the common people got to seeing that taking care of the less fortunate is The Church's Problem and that so long as they gave to the Church, they were doing their part. The collapse of the Roman society, and the ensuing dark ages might have to do with it as well, since there were no longer large cities where people lived closely, but were more spread out, and pretty much everyone was dirt poor. *shrug*

My thoughts are going that way as well, as far as how much he would really care about the economic system. Just based on the fact that he never said much about the economy, but encouraged giving to the less fortunate and helping those in need. Maybe in an ideal world it wouldn't matter so much because if everyone just plain cared about their fellow man, most people's needs would be met.
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"Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming.  This is a fault.

        Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the cultivated.  For these there is hope.
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Paul
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2009, 09:22:20 AM »

When I began this thread, my thoughts were that he was leaning more toward a socialistic society, but as we discuss the economics, I tend to think that he probably didn't care too much on the economics. There is of the course the verse where he and Judas have the discussion on the bottle of expensive oil that he used to coat himself before he was turned over to the courts, where Judas shows a real socialist viewpoint where he tells Jesus that they could sell the oil and give to the poor. Jesus responds by saying that there will be poor always. Sounds more like a capitalist at this point.

Maybe the driving thought should be as you noted to become more aware and integrated with our fellow humans and their plights. Maybe the system is not the problem but that we do not want to honor the additional commandment that Jesus gave to us: Love your neighbor as yourself.  It is again our greed that gets in the way of this.  For to do this, we would have to sacrifice for our neighbor to be in a position like ourselves.
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Lee Encinosa
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2009, 12:17:56 PM »

I think Jesus was leaning toward more of a socialistic viewpoint. As Paul noted it is our greed that gets in the way and as long as we remain fallible and corruptible greed will continue to be a major stumbling block. I think until He changes us from corruptible to incorruptible we will continue to have this problem. Every one of us has been greedy at one time or another.
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Paul
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2009, 02:07:03 PM »

So, the next question is why do we as a Christ follower continue to advocate this societal function of capitalism without the additional requirement of love thy neighbor being a part of that?
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Anxiety
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2009, 04:07:37 PM »

Because Christ followers are human, and humans are selfish.

I thought we already answered that one :]
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Paul
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2009, 06:44:49 PM »

So true!  Cheesy  Cheesy

Maybe the question should be restated.  What do we need to change in our society to reflect Jesus's teachings about loving thy neighbor.
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2009, 08:41:03 AM »

So true!  Cheesy  Cheesy

Maybe the question should be restated.  What do we need to change in our society to reflect Jesus's teachings about loving thy neighbor.
Good luck with that.  angel
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"Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming.  This is a fault.

        Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the cultivated.  For these there is hope.
"

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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2009, 07:02:10 PM »

We should eliminate teaching our children that they are special and "independent" and that their future belongs to them and no one else.

Life is a series of interdependencies, if you don't share you're likely to not go very far unless you replace sharing with cunning (lying) and evil (capitalist business practices).
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