LifeQuest Community
May 22, 2012, 01:43:53 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Check out our online Calendar for more event dates and details!
 
  Home   Forum   Help Gallery Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Send this topic  |  Print  
Author Topic: Adam and Eve, why the different interpretations.  (Read 237 times)
Paul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1071


Light dispels the darkness


« on: January 06, 2011, 07:28:18 AM »

Was reviewing my thoughts on how Christians have taken the old testament which was written for the Jews, in their own language and with their own theological meanings and interpreted it differently then the originators, yet tell the originators that Christians know the real meaning. We do not discuss any other scenario or even recognize that there are other interpretations out there. Why?

Seems audacious to me to say the least.  Yet I also believe that anyone can interpret any passage anyway that has meaning to them. On  the other hand, that interpretation is not binding on the rest of humanity.

Here are three different interpretations of the Adam and Eve story that is accepted worldwide through different theologies
Logged
Paul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1071


Light dispels the darkness


« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2011, 07:37:38 AM »

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Orthodox-Judaism-952/Original-Sin.htm

Rabbi Moss - "The Jewish view of the sin of Adam and Eve is very different from the Christian one. In fact, when looked at deeply, it is questionable whether the sin was evil at all.

Judaism is emphatic that a person is born innocent - not evil, not good either, but innocent. We are given a clean slate. But we are not born into an innocent world. The world we are born into is one of challenge, difficulty, pain and evil. But all these are merely means to an end: it is through facing challenges that we grow as human beings, through going through difficulty we bring out deeper resources from within, through pain we become stronger and by combatting evil we create a world of good. So all negativity in the world is just a facade - behind it is ultimate goodness.

That's how reality is now. But it was not like that in the beginning. Adam and Eve were pure beings who entered a perfect world. There was no challenge, pain or death in their world. The "knowledge of good and evil" was a tree that they were told to stay away from in order to maintain this perfect world. "On the day you eat from the tree you will become mortal" said G-d. Eve picked up on a nuance in this warning. Here is my reconstruction of Eve's thought process:

G-d is giving us a choice. We can either remain perfect in a perfect world, or we can ingest the knowledge of good and evil and become imperfect (mortal). What should we choose? Well, G-d created us with a purpose. But what purpose could there be in remaining perfect? G-d was perfect before we were created, so what are we adding? Our purpose must be to face imperfection and make that perfect too, through our own efforts. That's something only we can do, because only we can be imperfect (G-d "can't" do that). So she ate of the tree and convinced Adam to eat it too.

Mortality was not a punishment for eating the fruit, but rather the natural consequence (because only a perfect being is immortal). So too the other "curses" - pain in childbirth and difficulty in making a living are the natural consequences of Eve's choice, because from now on, all achievement has to be earned, which means that nothing can be "born" without hardship.

As descendants of Adam and Eve we have inherited this path - the path of facing challenges, fighting evil and trying to bring the world back to its previous perfection. Every time we overcome a negative urge, or we transform an evil situation to a holy one, we win a battle in this war. We make the world a little bit more comfortable for G-d's presence to be manifest. When the sum total of all the good in all generations reaches a certain point, G-d will send the Messiah. He is a human leader who will teach the world how to put the finishing touches on the work of perfecting the world. He will bring material peace between all nations of the world, he will make peace between the spiritual ideals of how the world should be and the practical reality of how the world is, he will bring down the heavens and reveal them on earth. And he won't die, nor will anyone, because evil and death will have been vanquished for ever."
Logged
Paul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1071


Light dispels the darkness


« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2011, 07:45:12 AM »

Wikipedia - In Christian doctrine, the Fall of Man, or simply the Fall, refers to the transition of the first humans from a state of innocent obedience to God to a state of guilty disobedience to God. In Genesis chapter 2, Adam and Eve live at first with God in a paradise, but are then deceived or tempted by the serpent to eat fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which had been forbidden them by God. After doing so they become ashamed of their nakedness and God consequently expelled them from paradise. The sinfulness to that estate wherein man fell consists in the guilt of Adam and Eve's (first man and woman) first sin: the want of original righteousness which is iniquity and the corruption of their whole nature which is commonly called original sin or iniquity together with all actual transgressions which proceed from it. The Fall is not mentioned by name in the Bible, but the story of disobedience and expulsion is recounted in both Testaments in different ways. The Fall can refer to the wider theological inferences for all humankind as a consequence of Eve and Adam's original sin. Examples include the teachings of Paul in Romans 5:12-19 and 1 Cor. 15:21-22.
Some Christian denominations believe the Fall corrupted the entire natural world, including human nature, causing people to be born into original sin, a state from which they cannot attain eternal life without the gracious intervention of God.
Logged
Paul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1071


Light dispels the darkness


« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2011, 07:50:30 AM »

 Wikipedia - Quran
God announced to the angels that He would create a viceregent (man) on the earth. The angels questioned this, wondering why God would create something with the capacity to disobey Him:
002.030 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent (man) on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." 002.031 And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right." 002.032 They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom." 002.033 He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"[Qur'an 2:30] (Al-Baqara [The Cow])

God then commanded the angels to prostrate (bow down) to Adam. The angels prostrated but Iblis (Satan), out of haughtiness, refused to bow. God cursed him because of his disobedience. Iblis sought respite and vowed to mislead Adam and his progeny. He misled Adam and his wife Eve to eat from a tree that was forbidden for them by God. Due to their disobedience, God ordered the removal of Adam and Eve out of paradise and down to earth. God promised that the earth will be a dwelling place for them and their children a limited time (Until the Day of Judgment). The Qur'an Al-A'raf (The Elevated Places) verses 7:11-27 detail the story of the Fall.

Islam interprets the account of the fall as being simply historical, Adam and Eve's disobedience would have already been known to God even before he created them, thus draw no particular theological implications for human nature. That is, man's setting, condition, and environment have in essence changed - but not man himself. Quite simply, because of Adam's actions, he and his wife were removed from the garden, forced to work, suffer pain in childbirth, and die. However, even after expelling them from the garden, God provided that people who honor God and follow God's laws would be rewarded, while those who acted wrongly would be punished.
Logged
Amanda
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 64



« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2011, 02:43:42 AM »

This topic was REALLY confusing. I did some Google searching and came across the same website you quoted. The author was not concerned with the Adam and Even story in itself, so much as the concept of original sin/fall of man and the need for Jesus as Savior, which is why I was confused.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/original_sin2.htm

Yet I also believe that anyone can interpret any passage anyway that has meaning to them.

I doubt this is God's purpose for the Bible. Reading the Bible is not about making God work in a way that makes us feel comfortable. Most of the time it's quite the opposite.

Okay, basically, here are the verses the author uses to disprove the concept of the "Fall of Man:"

Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

2 Kings 14:6, But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

Jer. 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."


Using my VERY LIMITED knowledge of the Old Testament, all those verses seem to be saying is that you will be judged and/or punished according to your own sins. Since all of us have sinned, all of us will be judged and/or punished, regardless of what Adam and Eve did or didn't do. I think what the New Testament authors were getting at, when they retold the story, is that Adam and Eve opened the door to sin.

1) The "sin" of Adam and Eve was in fact a conscious choice, a necessary step in the development of humanity's purpose. It was the introduction of imperfection into creation - something only humans can do.
2) We are not born evil, but we are born in a world of apparent evil and hidden goodness. Our mission is to reveal that goodness.

Thus the doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.


It seems to me, first of all, that the author of this article thinks sin is perfectly okay and necessary. This, of course, is contradicted in the very verses he used to try to prove his point. And what is the point of winning the "battle of good and evil" if there ISN'T any evil?? Secondly, this whole thing seems to be a matter of semantics. Man sins because he is not perfect, vs. man sins because he is inherently sinful. Who cares? The point is that we all have sinned, whether we think it comes from being imperfect or from being inherently sinful.

Anyway, back to the topic of different interpretations, there are some sects of Christianity who agree with the Jews (i.e. there is no "original sin") and some who disagree (there is "original sin"). I wouldn't say it's not discussed, since that is something that the Church remains divided on. I bet if you walk down the street and ask 10 people what they think, you'll get 10 different answers.
Logged

Don't breathe too deep
Don't think all day
Dive in to work
Drive the other way
That drip of hurt
That pint of shame
Goes away, just play the game.
-- Rent
Paul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1071


Light dispels the darkness


« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2011, 08:18:25 AM »

Good comment, yet the teaching of "original sin" in the church was not even thought of until 394 a.d. (c.e.) by St Augustine. So the concept that man is inherently "sinful" is a new thought in the overall age of the book. 

I disagree that it is semantics. -1. being born clean and free of sin and then obtaining sin as you live your life is different then saying - 2. you are born a defective product and there is no way to fix you.

1. is fixable as you repent of "sinful ways", realizing that there is a chance to "redeem" yourself by your actions in your lifetime. Which makes a relationship with God personal, obtainable and allowing the cleansing of the sin to become strictly between you and God without a third person intervention. Or in my opinion, "I went in talked to my Dad, told him what happened and promised to try and be better, He accepted that I had learned a valuable lesson and we are good with each other now."

2. is unfixable - you are defective and there is no chance of "redemption" unless of course you abide by the rules and thoughts of a theology.  You as a person have no input on the cleanness of your soul. You also can have a personal relationship with God except that the outcome of this relationship has no bearing on your soul. You can only be cleaned by a third party entity that may or may not deem you worthy of saving. my opinion on this "I went to my Brother, told him my story, explained that I was sorry for doing a wrong thing, I will change my ways, and could He go and talk to Dad and explain the situation so that Dad will like me again. Because Dad really doesn't want to talk to me, but He really likes my Brother."

As far as everyone being able to interpret, we do that everyday. As you note, ask ten people anything in the bible and you get ten "correct" answers. Each is proven by that person's theological leader. 

It seems to me, first of all, that the author of this article thinks sin is perfectly okay and necessary. This, of course, is contradicted in the very verses he used to try to prove his point. And what is the point of winning the "battle of good and evil" if there ISN'T any evil?? Secondly, this whole thing seems to be a matter of semantics. Man sins because he is not perfect, vs. man sins because he is inherently sinful. Who cares? The point is that we all have sinned, whether we think it comes from being imperfect or from being inherently sinful.

I like this thought.  Because you have come across a point that I feel is extremely necessary in our world.  Who cares what the point of view is? I applaud you if you feel this way, because then you are presenting a view that it doesn't matter what one's belief is, but how does the world become a less "sinful" place. Yet, wars have been fought over the milennia because in theology they care.
Logged
Amanda
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 64



« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2011, 08:11:10 PM »

I disagree that it is semantics. -1. being born clean and free of sin and then obtaining sin as you live your life is different then saying - 2. you are born a defective product and there is no way to fix you.

1. is fixable as you repent of "sinful ways", realizing that there is a chance to "redeem" yourself by your actions in your lifetime. Which makes a relationship with God personal, obtainable and allowing the cleansing of the sin to become strictly between you and God without a third person intervention. Or in my opinion, "I went in talked to my Dad, told him what happened and promised to try and be better, He accepted that I had learned a valuable lesson and we are good with each other now."

2. is unfixable - you are defective and there is no chance of "redemption" unless of course you abide by the rules and thoughts of a theology.  You as a person have no input on the cleanness of your soul. You also can have a personal relationship with God except that the outcome of this relationship has no bearing on your soul. You can only be cleaned by a third party entity that may or may not deem you worthy of saving. my opinion on this "I went to my Brother, told him my story, explained that I was sorry for doing a wrong thing, I will change my ways, and could He go and talk to Dad and explain the situation so that Dad will like me again. Because Dad really doesn't want to talk to me, but He really likes my Brother."


If there is a difference in the way you feel about yourself depending on how someone interprets Genesis and the concept of "original sin," I think in the long run, your perception of yourself is the only difference. The bottom line is that we all are sinners anyway, so the real concern is how to "fix" that. Dwelling on sins, as much as we tend to do that, doesn't necessarily lead to "fixing," which I think is the ultimate goal.

I like this thought.  Because you have come across a point that I feel is extremely necessary in our world.  Who cares what the point of view is? I applaud you if you feel this way, because then you are presenting a view that it doesn't matter what one's belief is, but how does the world become a less "sinful" place. Yet, wars have been fought over the milennia because in theology they care.

Yes, people do care -- about stuff that is trivial! If we focused on the "fixing" we might all be happier!   Smiley
Logged

Don't breathe too deep
Don't think all day
Dive in to work
Drive the other way
That drip of hurt
That pint of shame
Goes away, just play the game.
-- Rent
Paul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1071


Light dispels the darkness


« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2011, 11:15:27 PM »

Agree  Grin
Logged
Pages: [1]
  Send this topic  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!