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Roy
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« on: April 01, 2007, 12:36:16 PM » |
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How odd to think, that hope is something that is held onto beyond logic and reason. Of course, an atheist would tally this as one of the things that make Christianity faulty. What do you think?
How about this...
Scientists claim that, (there being no God) all things that we, as humans, do are motivated in some way by evolutionary factors. That is, we hunger because eating allows this generation to pass on it's genes. We become frightened because it allows us to survive in the wild. We gather as families and friends because a group can survive against the wild more easily than an individual could. So what does this say about hope? Surely, there isn't an evolutionary advantage to holding on to the promise of God beyond what is logical and reasonable.
As C.S. Lewis once said (I'm quoting loosely here, I don't feel like looking it up)
We hunger because we can eat. We have sexual desire because there is a capacity for that desire to be fulfilled. We all desire God, in some form or another. So, why would that desire exist if there wasn't some means to fulfill it?
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Schmendrick
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2007, 11:01:58 PM » |
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Pair bonding ensures that offspring will be reared. Human brains (and consequently heads) are too big for live birth, so humans infants are born undeveloped and require the supervision and protection of parents -- which is much more feasible from a survivability standpoint when there are two parents.
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2007, 12:24:10 AM » |
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I'd say Lewis is wrong in a few respects. There are some people who don't desire God. And if a God or Gods are desired, which one(s)?
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Brandy
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2007, 09:09:35 AM » |
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How odd to think, that hope is something that is held onto beyond logic and reason. Of course, an atheist would tally this as one of the things that make Christianity faulty. What do you think?
How about this...
Scientists claim that, (there being no God) all things that we, as humans, do are motivated in some way by evolutionary factors. That is, we hunger because eating allows this generation to pass on it's genes. We become frightened because it allows us to survive in the wild. We gather as families and friends because a group can survive against the wild more easily than an individual could. So what does this say about hope? Surely, there isn't an evolutionary advantage to holding on to the promise of God beyond what is logical and reasonable.
As C.S. Lewis once said (I'm quoting loosely here, I don't feel like looking it up)
We hunger because we can eat. We have sexual desire because there is a capacity for that desire to be fulfilled. We all desire God, in some form or another. So, why would that desire exist if there wasn't some means to fulfill it?
We have this saying, my supervisor and I, that hope springs eternal. If there's no hope that something could be better- whether it be situational or relational- what point is there to continue? What meaning does life have? Food is not readily available for many. Many people do not have family and few, if any, friends. If they did not have the hope that there would be food tomorrow, or that someone would one day love them, there really wouldn't be a point to live- life would have no value. I'd say Lewis is wrong in a few respects. There are some people who don't desire God. And if a God or Gods are desired, which one(s)?
I think most people (it would be ignorant to say all), atheists included, want to believe in something bigger than themselves. But, that desire is numbed cynicism and skepticism- to avoid disappointment. This is on a much lower level than all of this, but when I am going through something that is difficult for me, or a change is taking place that I am unsure about, I shrink back and begin to isolate myself- because I fear that what I desire out of the situation- or from the people around me- will not be fulfilled. Therefore, if I distance myself from it, no matter what the possibility or probability of it occuring is, I will feel less pain if/when it doesn't happen. If there wasn't even the smallest hope that something good could come from it, I wouldn't even bother. I probably wouldn't be here at all. |
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« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 09:15:34 AM by Brandy »
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Anxiety
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2007, 10:19:36 AM » |
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I think most people (it would be ignorant to say all), atheists included, want to believe in something bigger than themselves. But, that desire is numbed [by] cynicism and skepticism- to avoid disappointment. What disappointment would they be avoiding? I think belief in a God comes from a few things, and one of them isn't a want. It's either socially inscribed in you at some point in your life, done as a coping mechanism (which is what you've described), or to fill in gaps in science and answer the larger (and historically smaller) questions. In my case, it's through reason and personal experience, but I not believe God* interferes with the outcome of my life. |
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Michelle
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Smile!!!
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2007, 11:25:24 AM » |
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I don't know...I honestly believe everyone desires God. The desire may take different forms...some believe in the God of a particular religion, some people make themselves their own gods, some may believe in a divine creator...the list is endless. Even when I didn't know God, I knew he existed.
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Brandy
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 11:41:12 AM » |
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What disappointment would they be avoiding?
I think belief in a God comes from a few things, and one of them isn't a want. It's either socially inscribed in you at some point in your life, done as a coping mechanism (which is what you've described), or to fill in gaps in science and answer the larger (and historically smaller) questions. In my case, it's through reason and personal experience, but I not believe God* interferes with the outcome of my life.
You're equating hope with God. Do people who do not believe in God not hope? Do you not hope for happiness in your life? Do you not hope for enlightenment and truth? You stated in another thread that you wanted meaning. What does that mean to you- to have meaning? |
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2007, 01:01:08 PM » |
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How am I equating hope with God?
What is your definition of hope? The expectation that a certain desire will be fulfilled? If so, I want no part of this "hope". I hope for nothing.
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Brandy
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2007, 01:44:36 PM » |
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I think hope is a wish for a desire or need, that may or may not be filled, but not giving up on the possibility.
Wikipedia:
"Hope is a belief in a positive outcome related to events and circumstances in one's life. Hope implies a certain amount of ? i.e. believing that a positive outcome is possible even when there is some evidence to the contrary."
"Hope is passive in the sense of a wish or a prayer - or active as a plan or idea, often against popular belief, with persistent, personal action to execute the plan or prove the idea. Consider a prisoner of war who never gives up hope for escape and, against the odds, plans and accomplishes this. By contrast, consider another prisoner who simply wishes or prays for freedom, or another who gives up all hope of freedom."
"the general feeling that some desire will be fulfilled; "in spite of his troubles he never gave up hope"
"promise: grounds for feeling hopeful about the future; "there is little or no promise that he will recover"
Merriam-Webster:
hope against hope : to hope without any basis for expecting fulfillment
These are examples of my defition of hope.
What is your definition of hope?
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« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 02:04:25 PM by Brandy »
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Brandy
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2007, 02:03:49 PM » |
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How am I equating hope with God?
Example: How odd to think, that hope is something that is held onto beyond logic and reason. Of course, an atheist would tally this as one of the things that make Christianity faulty. What do you think?
How about this...
Scientists claim that, (there being no God) all things that we, as humans, do are motivated in some way by evolutionary factors. That is, we hunger because eating allows this generation to pass on it's genes. We become frightened because it allows us to survive in the wild. We gather as families and friends because a group can survive against the wild more easily than an individual could. So what does this say about hope? Surely, there isn't an evolutionary advantage to holding on to the promise of God beyond what is logical and reasonable.
Here, it sounds like you're saying that hope is something Christians made up and is illogical and unreasonable, and that instead of "hope", it's called motivation. If I perceived this incorrectly, I apologize. Please let me know. |
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Brandy
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2007, 02:13:22 PM » |
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Pair bonding ensures that offspring will be reared. Human brains (and consequently heads) are too big for live birth, so humans infants are born undeveloped and require the supervision and protection of parents -- which is much more feasible from a survivability standpoint when there are two parents.
It doesn't take love to reproduce. Does love necessarily have to be in the picture to take "responsibility" over someone? An example of what I mean is, say, when 2 people have a 1-night stand. The woman tells the man she is pregnant with his child. He makes arrangements to support her monetarily, but has no contact with the child. And, not every infant is taken care of by his/her biological parents. Orphanages are full of these instances. Now, I personally believe that love is vital to a healthy child to turn into a healthy adult. Sadly, that is not always the case. |
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2007, 04:37:12 PM » |
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Here, it sounds like you're saying that hope is something Christians made up and is illogical and unreasonable, and that instead of "hope", it's called motivation. If I perceived this incorrectly, I apologize. Please let me know. I didn't say that, you quoted Roy not me. |
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Brandy
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2007, 04:53:40 PM » |
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I didn't say that, you quoted Roy not me.
I apologize. I, for whatever reason, thought it was you. I think I'm used to his cat picture. I'm sorry! |
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2007, 06:00:15 PM » |
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If it took love to reproduce, most species wouldn't survive. Love and sex drive are entirely different. I think most of us, except the completely cynical, cold, and misanthropic would agree with that. ...but what's your point? |
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